Artwork by Akshita Arora
From conversation on:
Oct 06, 2020
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As we are trying to expand our horizons in science, we are also moving closer and inwards, into the intricate, invisibly tiny details. Leaps in physics have led to marvels in technology. Computers have shifted from humongous rooms to petri-dishes - and while it may all seem like magic to us, Dr. Jinesh creates this magic on a daily basis. Building things from scratch, creating revolutions from ideas, and evolving continually throughout, having lived and outgrown Moore’s law, in our conversation with him, Dr. Jinesh K.B. brilliantly elaborated on the evolution of science in the field of semiconductor physics over the last few decades, talked about his journeys, the challenging excitement of building devices for space applications, the fundamental idea behind the futuristic Neuromorphic memories, and its revolutionary effect on the current computing system.
..you see, noise is not always bad. Carefully analysing the noise, we observed that something very different was happening in our experiment. There was ice formation at room temperature! ....and that was a revolutionary discovery!
ABOUT THE GUEST
Dr. Jinesh K. B. Associate Professor, Department of Physics, Indian Institute of Space Science and Technology, Trivandrum
Dr. Jinesh K.B. is currently an Associate Professor in the Department of physics at the Indian Institute of Space Science and Technology. His early education started at the Mahatma Gandhi University, Kottayam, Kerala where he earned his bachelor's degree in the discipline of Physics followed with a Master’s in Sciences in the same discipline at the Cochin University of Science and Technology (CUSAT), Cochin. He holds two PhDs in the disciplines of Electrical Engineering (Twente University of Technology, The Netherlands) and Physics (Leiden University, The Netherlands). He also served as a Senior Researcher at the Nanyang Technological University, Singapore. His research work primarily includes Future Memory Technology: Neuromorphic memory, Artificial Synapse for future Artificial Intelligence and Data Management, Nanoelectronic Materials, Atomic layer deposition (ALD). He holds 12 patents and several publications to his name.
Transcript
Naman Jain (Host 1) :
Welcome to another episode of Zeroing in. I'm Naman Jain and hosting this episode with me today is Fenil Shah, who recently graduated from IIST with a Masters in Solid State Physics. Joining us today is a physicist who is currently an associate professor at the Indian Institute of Space Science and Technology, Trivandrum. He has two doctoral degrees in the disciplines of physics and electrical engineering, wherein he carried out his doctoral work at the Leiden University and the Twente University of Technology in the Netherlands respectively.
He has extensive industry experience in numerous frontier research projects, rightly lying at an interdisciplinary juncture of his unique expertise, such as the development of dielectric thin films for gas sensing, the characterization of materials with high dielectric constants and advanced work in the development of high density capacitors to just name a few. Following this, he moved into Academia, wherein he held a research position at the Nanyang Technological University in Singapore, and then finally took up the position at the Indian Institute of Space, Science and Technology, Trivandrum in 2013.
To date, he holds 12 patents to his credit. His primary research interests lie in the futuristic and intricately associated fields of semiconductor physics, device physics and nano electronics, solid state physics and process technology which he addresses at his laboratories in the IIST.
In our conversation with him, we discovered his enriching outtakes from this intriguing journey, delved into the depths of path breaking ideas that he's worked upon and over the course of this path, how connecting the dots makes all the more sense.
Join me in welcoming Dr. Jinesh K.B. Pillai. Welcome, Sir.
Dr. Jinesh K. B. :
Thank you.
Naman :
So, I think we would like to start with this idea about your early years and what do you think were your role models like? Do you think that that idea has changed over time and how your passion for science has evolved over... over these years?
Dr. Jinesh :
Thank you, Naman. You started with a difficult question, I... I would say. Because yeah, it's about the evolution of interest from earlier days. So, earlier days, of course, in childhood we don't know what is exactly going on in the field of science and research; what is happening all around. We have only a little bit of history of whatever we are gathering from resources from our teachers primarily. Naturally, in our childhood, what we think about science is quite different, because at that time, we imagined science and now we are living science. Definitely, there's a big evolution in it, so when we imagine about something, we can add all types of fantasies to it. We can start from atoms to black holes, anywhere we can go. But when you live in science we have to deal with it. See, there are a lot of different ingredients to it when you grow from your childhood dreams. Because as I said, imagination is beautiful. We can add everything. And when you start adding reality to it and you slowly understand that what you're learning so far was science fiction and now we are removing that fiction part. Our experiences in different groups, different research environments and maybe in industry or academia, everything will add up to it and it will finally make you who you are, okay. So that is. That’s an evolution. Definitely, it was quite different from what I was dreaming about.
Naman :
It's wonderful to hear how much science has evolved for you, and in so many different directions as well. Along those lines, can you tell us how you first stumbled upon your interest in the field of science? Or do you remember any peculiar stories from your childhood in this context?
Dr. Jinesh :
Uhm, I was born and brought up in a very small village surrounded by Paddy fields and broken trees and all. So there was not even a concept possible to become a scientist because that was not even in our ideas/dreams. It all happened because of a book, which I was reading at that time. I actually happened to have a book called Our Great Scientists. So that book, I believe, was published by Kerala Shastra Sahitya Parishad. They're actually spreading science in Malayalam, in Kerala. That was a book which was describing different scientists in one page, from their birth to all their achievements. Mostly Nobel laureates and a lot of scientists from India. Yeah, and it included all fields, including psychology. That was an amazing book and we have to be fortunate to get such a book at that age. I think I was in the seventh standard, maybe 12 years old. Because you are suddenly exposed to a bunch of different fields in science. I hadn't even heard about any of those fields at that time. At that time, science means science, okay. That one single book contains Physics, Chemistry, Biology and everything. So, that’s how I came to know that there are different fields in science. At that time, it was too early to decide where to go. So, that book actually initiated a kind of passion in Science.
Fenil Shah (Host 2) :
Yeah, that's really nice to hear. So, continuing from there, we'd like to ask you how you transitioned from your school days into bachelors and decided to pursue masters as well as PhD? So, could you just briefly take us through that journey and what crucial decisions you needed to take at those junctures?
Dr. Jinesh :
Okay. Uh, when I was going to pre-university, conflict came. Fifteen to eighteen years is an age of conflict in everybody’s life, where we struggle to make decisions. So, at that time, a little bit of interest in literature came up and then I was actually concentrating more on Malayalam literature than science. So science's passion was there, alongside. But then, when I went to pre-university, suddenly modern Malayalam literature came into picture. And I was totally trapped into that. So, my passion for science was kept away a little bit. But then, there was a big conflict
Whether to go for literature or for science? And then, I understood that finally my grades were getting lower. Then I had to make a decision :
Whether to go for science or literature? I decided to go for science and then I joined bachelors. But again, at that time, everybody wanted to go for engineering. But, I actually wanted to go for a BSc., Bachelor of Sciences and then do MSC like that. Again, I got this idea mainly from that book, how people were actually doing science. But, naturally, at that time, everybody was against joining basic science. Everybody wanted me to join engineering. With their compulsion, I wrote the engineering exam and yeah, unfortunately I passed that exam. So, the pressure was enormous to join engineering. At that time, my literature passion was kept aside. I decided to go for science. Whatever happens, okay, I had to take the responsibility. It's my life. So, I have to take responsibility for my decisions. So yeah, there were a lot of oppositions, a lot of struggles, a lot of problems. But, I finally managed to join BSc. Physics, and then onwards things were happening. Just happening as I was thinking about it. And for my BSc. I joined the Mahatma Gandhi University in Kottayam. So, there my teachers were, I mean, I would say excellent. They were really passionate about teaching. So that shaped up my career towards Physics, I would say. So, then I went for a masters in Kochin University of Science and Technology. Again, I got an excellent opportunity to work with eminent professors there for my projects. So I could do projects earlier than it was actually allowed to do projects and that helped a lot. And we could publish 3 international papers from Masters projects. So that was really nice. And at that time, nanotechnology, nanoscience, nanomaterials, that field was coming up slowly. So, I'm talking about 20 years ago, 22 years ago, okay. That was happening. I could actually do substantial work in nanomaterials. That helped me a lot to gain my passion in science and in research.
Naman :
Now I probably, a little clearly, understand what was the thing that stuck out for me. It was the fact that you know, normally as children, we imagine that, we have this exposure, and then we have these role models that we want to always go after and become like. And you had this innate sense of passion, or this... this innate drive somehow that, you know, when you find something you actually go after it, and then you could go ahead with it. Because it's not about being the first, it's about being someone out of all this place where you’ve not seen someone doing something like this.That's what strikes out in this whole idea.
Dr. Jinesh :
Yeah, as I told you before, I mean, uh, for example, exposure to that book, that particular book. I kept those books with me for a very long time because I was reading again and again and again. I don't know how many times I read the page that contains Albert Einstein, Fermi and CV Raman. And Chandrashekar, of course. These four people. It was amazing. So, I discussed these things with my friend and we discussed and we decided to make a lab at home and then, basically stealing chemicals from the kitchen. And Kottayam is very famous for latex, and rubber, okay. So, we have plenty of rubber trees around. And to process the rubber sheets, there's a chemical used which is formic acid and that will be there in every house, in Kottayam. So we used to steal formic acid. That’s a very strong acid, by the way. So we take that acid, we take some washing powder and mix it. You can see a lot of bubbles are coming here. So, these kinds of simple experiments we started doing there. All those things helped me a lot. I think my father gifted me a set of test tubes, and that was with me almost till I was doing masters. So that was like a primary science gift or science inspiration. Because that test tube is worth something, for a boy of that village, something enormous. So every ingredient helps a lot to shape up our goal towards a career, okay. Science was not just a career for me, I was not even thinking about that idea, at that time. It was just about doing something passionately, something from your dreams, okay.
Fenil :
Yeah,It's really reassuring to hear how such small-small things, if you have passion strong enough, even these small things can, you know, keep you going throughout. Like as you mentioned, small one page introductions of great scientists.And your father gifting you a mere test tube. You know, you just require that small of an incentive to carry on with your passion. So it's really good to hear that. So, I would like to jump here a little towards a more technical side. So we tried taking a glance at your PhD thesis, which was, to be honest, quite an intimidating piece of work. And there we came across this idea of thermolubricity and we believe this concept was introduced for the first time or in a sense, say, discovered in your work. So could you tell us more about this idea and how you stumbled upon it?
Dr. Jinesh :
Sure, Yeah. So, when I went to the Netherlands, I mean when I went to Leiden University, I heard about this particular project about friction. So it is called nanotribology. Tribology is a field about studying friction. So, nanotribology means the friction at nanoscale. I mean, we know friction is, we can say, the most ancient scientific problem, okay. So, starting from the first rolling thing, friction is one of the first scientific problems. But, to be honest, only in the 1930s, there was the first model about how fiction comes in Physics, okay. So that's called the Tomlinson model. Actually, that model is saying that, when you rub two things past each other, the nano-asperities, like clusters of atoms, how they are behaving? Where is this energy dissipating? Because friction is something which we cannot retrieve. it is an energy that is dissipated. So how is this friction coming? Where is the origin of friction? That was the problem.
It has a very important technological aspect, because when you deal with nanomaterials, they are moving. So, we are now miniaturizing everything. Everything is coming down to nano scale. We have microelectromechanical systems - MEMS, and it has a lot of applications we know, and it is again miniaturizing because it's becoming nanoelectromechanical systems. So, our gearboxes and everything becomes nanomechanical in future.
So then, this question will come, where is this friction coming from? Is it from one single atom or group of atoms? Or how atoms give out this energy or they dissipate this energy? So for that, we had to develop instruments which can actually measure the forces between atoms. So, we developed, actually my senior already developed a very sensitive atomic force microscope, which can measure the force between atoms and then I joined and I continued his work. Then we understood that anyway, if there is temperature, we know atoms are vibrating and vibration of atoms, so they can actually, if you put one atom on a surface it can jump over those, because at non-zero temperature it has thermal energy. So, what will happen if two nano systems are moving each other? And what is the role of temperature? So when we analyzed the data we got from those experiments, we understood that the temperature is like a lubricant. Because, it basically helps atoms to overcome the atomic barriers. So, at higher temperature these nanosystems will have, you see, movement lubricated by temperature. So that is the concept called the thermolubricity. Again, to prove that we used the theory by Tomlinson, which was from the 1930’s. Yeah, so it was an old theory, but it is still valid and it's a wonderful theory.
So using that, we could predict what will happen if temperature rises and then we could experimentally verify it. So lubrication by temperature, that was that thermolubricity.
Naman :
So, uh, we just want to continue on the line that you were answering the last question. That this idea, this concept, the whole concept of thermolubricity is something that you proposed in your PhD thesis. It was not there before really. How does one go about proposing something really so fundamentally relevant? How is that excitement like? Because, I mean, right now, when we hear about PhDs or the people who are pursuing PhDs they’re mostly under pressure and they're also, like, having pressures of presentations, producing something. All of these things come together. But then, to have a space of mind and the work to be able to produce something and then be passionate about it even at the end of PhD, to work for another PhD. That's a completely different ball-game we cannot imagine. And this thing is also, I think, very common from your childhood that we understand that you are always this dreamer who had these ideas. It's just that you needed, you know, a point to touch and you would go after it rather than thinking about if I can do that. So we just wanted to ask more about the doctoral work that you did it and what did it entail for you?
Dr. Jinesh :
So when you start with one work and finish a PhD, there would be something more exciting to be done. That becomes another PhD topic. Like that it goes in a lab. So when I joined it, it was actually the proposal to find out where the origin of friction from atoms [is]. And then analyzing the data, we understood that there is a lot of thermal noise in it. So that noise could be something useful. Noise is always not bad, okay. Not all the noises are bad, sometimes noises are good.
If you can analyze the noise, any kind of noise, you can use it, okay, for something. So this thermal noise, from our instrument, we thought that it would be a great idea to analyze it and then increase the noise, okay. How can we do that? By just increasing the temperature. Increase the noise and see how the system behaves. So, that was the initial idea where we got the idea that temperature might be lubricant. Because we saw that the friction is reducing, the energy dissipation is reducing. Because, in the system, they are trying to adjust here and there, going into a kind of chaos and then we see that friction goes down, okay. But, something very unexpected happened in between because it was the Netherlands and you know Netherlands is always a rainy place. 365 days it rains there, okay. So, the humidity is very high. I was not doing any kind of humidity control in my experiment. So, suddenly we thought about, okay, we have to control the humidity also, in the lab, in the environment. So when we controlled the humidity, we understood that something is happening in friction. So we changed the humidity in a very step-by-step manner and then we understood that something else is going on. It is not just friction between two surfaces, there is water getting inside, in these nanoscale asperities. So, in my experiment, it was a very sharp tip of tungsten which was actually moving on top of well-polished graphite. So, to see what is the friction between tungsten and graphite. But, suddenly, we understood that water also is getting in between and even after room temperature water becomes ice because it's a nanoscale asperity and it is like, to move ahead, we have to break this ice and then again it forms ice. Break that ice again. So, we could clearly see the lattice of ice is breaking and forming, breaking and forming in between. That was revolutionary, okay.
Naman :
You just say it so casually that it was revolutionary.
Dr. Jinesh :
Yeah, I mean, it actually took a lot of effort because when I suggested that it looks like the ice formation at room temperature, okay, then my supervisor suddenly jumped out of his chair and said it looks exciting, but I need proof. So, he came up with the suggestion that, okay, bring all your data and we will analyze it. So, we had a very, very long oval shaped discussion table there in our meeting room. What I did is that I printed out all the data, all the graphs and stacked all along the table sides and we just went through one by one and my supervisor was saying that OK if this is ice that should happen. Where is that thing? Okay, then, we went to that data to take a look. As I told you before, PhD time is polishing time, okay.
So how difficult a PhD is, in my opinion, will be how nicely that person will be polished. So, my PhD was like that because my supervisor did not allow anyone to publish any paper until a complete picture, a complete story is there and it's evidence is there, okay. Strong proof is there. But it's not like you're doing an experiment. Take the data. Publish it. It was not like that. We will get the publication almost at the end of the PhD time only, okay. You should not start publishing from the beginning itself because you need the complete story. Then, divide that story into papers. That was the structure, the style there. So that helps a lot. Because, finally, if you publish something and after two years you are getting a result which is against it, you'll have a problem, okay. Because you have already published something wrong. So that will not happen if you have a full set of data and full evidence for it. My supervisor was Professor Frenken, from Leiden University. He is well known in the field of scanning tunneling microscopes, structural science, basically. So, he said that this is the way we are doing, okay. I need proof for every thing and then we will publish. So finally, I could convince him. That was a very difficult process. But that is a part of that polishing process. I could convince him that there is ice at room temperature, okay. So, from temperature and thermal lubricity, finally, it became production of ice at nanoscales. That is again, the evolution of projects in a PhD. So, I used to tell my PhD students also that, okay, we start with the project, but keep all the doors open. We never know where you end up, okay. Within the restrictions of that topic. You know, the horses which are traveling, I mean, the horses that have these face masks, they can only see the front side. They can not see the sides, okay. They can only go in a line and that line is already... that path is already made. So, that is not the correct way of doing science. The horse should find out the path, then will get a lot of ideas.
Fenil :
Sir, I'd like to continue further from here. Going back to, you know, the timeline that we were discussing, after your PhD days. You know, Sir, as you pointed out, the idea of thermal lubricity basically came from noticing the noise and noticing that it did affect friction. So, you know, it's like going back to the roots of science. Observation is the first step and people usually term these kinds of discoveries as accidents, but it really isn't accidental. You need that observational skill and to identify that this is something good, and that's what science is all about. So, along those lines, I would like to ask, how do you go about the process of choosing topics in the field you're working on? And as you pointed out, you really have to be open about everything and you don't have to look in the straight line. So, if you could just briefly explain about it?
Dr. Jinesh :
Yes, yes definitely.So, science is all about observation and connecting your observations by logic. That's mainly what we do in science. So, we have a certain logic. We need evidence for that. We do experiments to prove that, that logic works, and then it will ask many questions. That experiment will come up with questions and then we have to connect them again. So again, you see, I love the word evolution. Because it's all about evolution. One problem we start with, but it evolves to a completely different side. For example, after my PhD, I joined Philips Research and then my second PhD is actually related to dielectrics. So, basically now my expertise is mostly on dielectric measurements and suddenly there's a field which is called resistive memory, okay. So, it's about dielectrics used for memory purposes. So naturally, from normal capacitor applications in CMOS, I jumped into memory. Where basically, again, the same capacitor is used, dielectric is used. That's what we are actually doing, at the moment, here in IIST. And there is a natural evolution from resistive memory. So, what can we do with these kinds of memories? We understand from literature that people have suggested that, okay, this kind of memory can be used for making artificial neurons, for example. Just like mimicking the brain of living systems. So, those kinds of things, you see, how it is evolving. We have to keep our minds open, our eyes open, our doors open. Then different ideas come in and then we have to see where we have to connect all these things together, okay. So, from dielectrics and now we are in artificial neurons and then slowly entering into artificial intelligence and it goes like that, okay. We can restrict ourselves to dielectric physics and we can do only dielectric physics. that's fine. There's no issue. But then, again, as I told you before, we are like the horse with that mask, okay. We don't see what's going on, on the other side. So sometimes, uh, we should remove that mask and see what is available around and we have to choose our own way, okay. So, that selection at any point in life, that selection is very important. The path you’re choosing is very important.So, that's how we ended up with the neuromorphic memory. So, a memory technology which is mimicking neurons is coming up. So, we started with dielectrics, but now we are there, okay. That is the evolution so far.
Naman :
Sir, I would just like to ask you about, as you briefly also pointed out right now as well about your research directions, right? Uh, the current research that you are pursuing in your labs, the multiple labs that you are actually leading at IIST, right now, and your investigations are inside these areas of material sciences as well as there are so many bachelors and masters projects that you supervise that they're actually very, very well listed for us to look through on your website as well. Just your research interests are so massive and fascinatingly forthcoming with these futuristic technologies and coalasing electronics and physics at the heart of it. So, how do you choose your projects in this exciting soup that you describe? And, I mean, what do you look for, there? And how do these ideas come together for you?
Dr. Jinesh :
Okay. Okay, just like I said, I really like the word soup. Because it's really a soup. It's a soup of all science in it. Because, see, at a certain point in time, we cannot distinguish between engineering and pure science. And within pure science, we cannot distinguish between chemistry, physics, mathematics, like that. So, what happens is that if you start with certain ideas for applications, you have to do physics, you have to do chemistry, you have to do engineering. So, what we are doing at this moment is about memory and what type of memory we are trying to mimic? Our neural networks, okay. Our real neurons in our brain, which means that we have to know biology. So, I have started studying biology a little bit. That means, how neurons are working, how our brain is working. All those things we have to study and then at the same time we have to construct it. So we need material sciences.
We have to know what are the properties of materials with which we can make neurons there. And after that once you make a device, we have to measure it and these measurements, it means, now it is in electronics, okay. So, one person cannot be an expert of all these things. So you see, ingredients come up, naturally. So, we have to make this soup, what will be the taste of the final soup, we don’t know, okay. So, when you're hungry you take a spoon of it and eat it and be happy that's it. So, this is an evolving soup for which we have not defined where’s the end of its cooking, okay. Maybe, the end of our service here.
So, now, is it that this neuromorphic technology is the end of our research? We don't know. Maybe, we'll deviate again from there, depending upon the news of that time or if there are new ideas coming out.
At this moment, memory means, immediately, memory. Which is something we have. So, how do we connect that to electronics? How can we electronically come up with the idea of brain-inspired memory? That is, that’s basically what we are doing, at the moment. To add to that maybe if I elaborate a little more, basically we are now living in the world of artificial intelligence and I think that is something which is going to change the world completely, okay. From my generation to your generation, the main difference, I would say, is the availability of information through the Internet or through computers or better resources. Compared to my time at your age, resources are very large now. I touched a computer for the first time during my Masters and that was with a black and white monitor and very poor specifications, okay. So, now you have your own laptops and everything. So, I know what Moore's law is and I was living it, okay. You can clearly see that. Now you see, we are already in the sixth generation of computations, that is artificial intelligence, and you're going to see the implications, applications of artificial intelligence.
So, that means our computation also has to cope with artificial intelligence. Our present computers, the problem is that we take information from the memory, process it and give it as output. So, one plus control is there. So, that is not what is happening in our brain. In our brain, you know, neurons have many connections with the other several thousands of neurons and that we call synaptic connections. And, one neuron can connect to more than 40,000 other neurons. So, that's why they are able to remember several things and we are able to do parallel things at the same time. Because, I mean, you see how many biological functions are happening in our body at the same time. We are drinking, we are eating, we are hearing, we are seeing. Everything happens at the same time.
This, an electronic computer at this moment cannot do, because this is a one step process, memory processing output. So, if we can do the same thing, what our brain does within neurons, with our computers, that will be revolutionary. That is the idea of neuromorphic memory.
So, the present scenario in computation is called the Von Neumann bottleneck. Okay, Von Neumann bottleneck means we can do one process at a time. But, if we have parallel computers we can actually do a lot of computation at the same time. That means if we have one computer connected to 40,000 computers that is equal to 1 neuron in our brain. So, IBM has come up with an experiment. They wanted to simulate some functions of the brain of a cat. And they had to use 1.5 lacs of computers, 2 supercomputers, that have 1.5 Lac computers with 144 terabyte memory. So, that is the complication of our brain.
But, can we come up with, again, the same computational power into one chip where we can do all these things parallely. So, a small chip, where we can artificially create a neural circuit, will be revolutionary. That will change the world of artificial intelligence completely. So, our research is in that line. Very small part of that thing we are doing. We're finding out new materials to create this kind of new memory which are useful for this neuromorphic technology and what are the connections there? What is the physics behind their final working? This is what we are doing at this moment.
Naman :
And, Sir, what does it take to, I mean, since you have like, at the moment, I believe there are three labs that you were leading, at the moment, at IIST as well. What does it take to, you know, start a lab from scratch? And how do you take it to a point where you see now that it's working and there are things producing out of it, and you basically have been through it. So, how is that process like? If you would be explaining?
Dr. Jinesh :
That's a very painful process in the beginning because we start from scratch. That means we don't even have a test tube, which I had in my childhood, okay. We started with a microscope glass that you can basically buy for a few rupees in the store. So, we started our research with that and then we had very few things in our hands. Then, we started buying and accumulating very slowly. And sometimes it is easy to make things than waiting for it or to buy it, because buying is always costly. If you make it, you know what you are making. How is the instrument working? So I'm, at this moment, starting from scratch, now after seven years here. We now have two wonderful atomic layer deposition systems of which one we constructed in IIST. Yes, so that means we can. We know what we're doing and we know how to modify it. We know what the scope of it is? So that's a good thing again. That idea is a part of the same evolution. Because you see, we started with playing with small things and we started making things. That was like my childhood. I mean, we have very small things around and we have very limited toys. So we are happy with that. We make our own things. Making small sculptures out of mud was my passion, at that time. Yeah, I used to make small goats and horses and their small features with clay. So, these kinds of skills will help in the future. After your childhood, you will forget about it. But, what happens is that those skills will remain in you and you can make anything else out of anything in the future.
So, labs will develop from scratch if you have small ingredients and if you can't put them together, things will happen. So now we have mainly 2 labs. One of them is called the Emerald, which is for electronic materials and devices. That is where our memory devices material science is happening. And the other is called STIC, that is, space technology innovations and characterization. So, there we do projects pointed to ISRO, mainly for space applications. These are not two different things but, we separate them by their basic purposes. But, we do research in both of them.So, when my first PhD student Mr. Preetam Hasra joined, basically, I showed him the lab and the lab was totally empty. Uh, three chairs and four tables were there. So that is where we started. Always, the first PhD students will struggle a lot. And then, with his enormous hard work, we managed to get to the current level of our labs. So now we are happy that we can do a lot of things. We are doing a lot of things.
Naman :
So, probably, we'd like to have a few conclusion questions now. I would like to ask you - if the field of academia probably did not exist, did you have, you know, something as an alternative that you would like to go forward with or, an alternate question would be was there any other field of science that you wanted to explore that you probably did not get time to, but you really wanted to explore a different direction of physics or something probably?
Dr. Jinesh :
Yeah, if not science, I would have become a writer, okay. That’s the simplest answer.
Naman :
Although we still believe that we can still read a novel from you, probably 10 years down the line anyway.
Dr. Jinesh :
Let’s see, let's see. I don't want to surprise you at the moment. So let's see., But certainly, I mean, we have certain experience in science, now. Maybe we should start writing science fiction. But, along that line, I would say as I told you after my pre university, when my academic credentials were totally gone. So, I decided to turn to science. I had to. I simply took all my collections of all my writings so far and I just burned it with the determination that I will not look back until I reach somewhere, okay. It's not, I mean, it was just a personal decision. I could have done the other way around also. I could have kept away all the science books and I could have gone for literature also. Who knows? I mean, that also could have been better for me. I don't know. So, at that time my passion was for science, so I just stopped writing and turned away my interests in literature and philosophy. So definitely, that's my answer. If not a scientist, I would have at least tried to become a writer. And my still unfinished business or incomplete passion is to become a musician. I don't sing. But, I love music a lot. I started learning piano a little bit, but because of time constraints, at this age I stopped. In six months, I stopped it. Passion is there, but we have to find time for it. Yeah so, scientist or a writer or a musician I would have become.
Fenil :
Yeah, all along these lines, I would like to ask you one more thing. Uh, you know, to let go of something you really love and to choose something else that you love equally and strongly, it takes, you know, a lot of determination and courage. Is there some word of advice you'd like to give to young students like us who are currently at junctures, where we need to make important decisions and choose between two or three things that we love. You know, if you could just give your opinions on it.
Dr. Jinesh :
Uhm… If you have more than one passion, which are equally strong, okay, the first thing to do is to do some homework and see what your heart says. Because, it’s important. If you take one and lose grips that can be damaging. You will later on think, I had an equal passion for that. Why did I choose this? That question should never come, okay. Whatever you choose, you should with a full heart. You should go for it. I mean, this is what I learned from the entire evolution story of my own career, okay. So, if you want to become a writer later on, you can become a writer later on. Writing skill or passion for literature is not something you lose, if you have a real passion for it. But if you're a writer and if you want to become a scientist at the end, that's a difficult path. So, certainly, leaving out one of your biggest passions is a very painful process. To make a decision, where should I go? But, you have to make your career, say, at the same time, without losing that interest or that passion in the chosen path later on. So, what I would say, is to not have any regrets later. You choose a path whichever your heart says, and then think about the future. The homework I said was, when you had to do some homework to see what are your possibilities to succeed in that path? Okay. So, that's important.
From a philosophical point, I can advise you, okay. You just choose your passion and then go for it. Okay. That's fine. But, uh, without doing homework that need not be a success. So, do the right homework, in the sense of where you want to go? Do you have the resources to go in the field of your passion? And nobody can be completely sure. And one of the possibilities. Only you can judge yourself. That is, my strong belief and that's my philosophy. Because nobody knows me more than I do. So, only I can judge whether I will succeed in that path, or whether I want to choose that path. All others are ingredients. All other advisors, from everywhere, they're all resources, okay. Whichever path you take, never regret it. You took it because you had that passion and to keep that passion going is the most important thing. And at the same time, try to keep the other passions along with you, but they don't get to interfere because interference can come from any direction, okay. You know what happens when light interferes? Light is a continuous thing, but, when it interferes, it has dark and bright fringes, okay.
Naman :
So, you keep taking us back to your literature idea and then how you use metaphors in such an immensely fascinating way [laughs].
Dr. Jinesh :
So, avoid those dark regions and then you’re continuous in your career [laughs].
Naman :
This was Zeroing In with Dr. Jinesh KB Pillai. It has been brought to you by the sounding rocket in collaboration with the IIST Alumni Association from the Indian Institute of Space Science Technology. We extend our sincere gratitude to Dr. Jinesh KB for sharing his inspiriting journey, gravity of following along intuitive trails and insightful outtakes from the diverse fields of semiconductor physics with us. On behalf of the whole Zeroing In team which includes Shreya Mishra, Fenil Shah, Manish Chauhan, Prajwal Patnaik, KVNG Vikram and I am Naman Jain. Thanks a lot for listening to this episode. If you have any suggestions you can write to us on zeroingin@outlook.in or contact and follow us on our Instagram handle at zeroinginpodcast or The Sounding Rocket page on Facebook. We hope to meet you on the other side.