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From conversation on:
Sep 13, 2020

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Our understanding of the things around us today tells us about how little we have known, underlining the significance of questioning everything we have so far sewn. And even though a lot of answers have led us to more and more questions, they have only become increasingly profound. We talked to Dr. Anand Narayanan about this seemingly never-ending hunt for the roots of all things, visible or not. While also venturing into stories of his journey in astronomy and astrophysics, his ideas, and the research that keeps him on his toes, looking forward to each day. The conversation treads along his journey towards and within Astronomy and Astrophysics. Along the way, he alludes to his ideas and takes on various things, including the subject. From the importance of learning, taking science to the commoners to discussing profound astrophysical questions like the missing baryon problem and missing out on other exciting pursuits like Astrobiology, he takes us on a photonic ride through the universe. There was a point when Dr. Narayanan’s enthusiasm to speak about the subject led him to drop the Mic and use both his hands as if he were addressing a live audience. This speaks in lengths about how science fascinates his heart!

The scientific worldview can be as refreshing, entertaining and liberating, as art, music or any other great thing that humankind has done.

ABOUT THE GUEST

speaker

Dr. Anand Narayanan Professor, Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics, Indian Institute of Space Science and Technology, Trivandrum

Dr. Anand Narayanan is an astrophysicist whose belief in the scientific quest for understanding the physical universe, and our place in it as humankind, as he puts it, “is one the most remarkable adventures our species have embarked upon”, has led him to investigate the intricate mysteries of the universe very hands-on. Back on Earth, he currently holds the position of a professor at the Indian Institute of Space Science and Technology. He pursued his masters and doctoral work in the discipline of Astronomy and Astrophysics from the Pennsylvania State University, after a B.Tech. in Electronics and Electrical engineering from CET, Trivandrum. An avid educator and active science communicator, he is well known in the community for his popular science columns in magazines and newspapers, public lectures, and scientific documentaries, (notably for creating and narrating the widely acclaimed astronomy documentary series in Malayalam named “Akalangalile Prapancham” (aa-ka-lang-a-li-le pra-pan-cham, which literally translates to ‘The distinct universe’). In academia, his research work focuses on understanding the details of the intergalactic medium in various scientific dimensions (including the distribution of baryonic matter therein).

Transcript

Naman Jain (Host 1) :
Questions tend to inspire a world of ideas much more than a mere need to answer. It’s the unending quest of understanding our origins, the laws of nature and the depths of the human mind that most often leaves us as far as astray only to be found anew. My name is Naman Jain and we welcome you to the very first episode of Zeroing In, the science podcast brought to you by the Sounding Rocket and the IIST Alumni Association from the Indian Institute of Space Science and Technology. Over our journey, we will explore the multitude of ideas and research being carried out by professors and researchers in the scientific community close at home, across the country and the world. This is Zeroing In. Welcome to today’s episode of Zeroing In. I’m Naman Jain, and joining me today as co-host is Prajwal Patnaik. Today, we are in conversation with an astrophysicist whose belief in the scientific quest for understanding the physical universe and our place in it as humankind, as he puts it, is one of the most remarkable adventures our species has ever embarked on. This has led him to investigate the intricate mysteries of the universe very hands on. Back on earth, he currently holds the position of an associate professor at the Indian Institute of Space Science and Technology. He pursued his Masters and Doctoral work in the discipline of Astronomy and Astrophysics from the Pennsylvania State University after a B.Tech in Electronics and Electrical Engineering from CET. An avid educator and an active science communicator, he is well known in the community for his popular science columns in magazines and newspapers, public lectures and scientific documentaries. In academia, his research work focuses on understanding the details of intergalactic medium in very scientific dimensions including the distribution of baryonic matter therein. In our conversation with him, we discussed his curious journey, his exciting research and the further ideas in the field. A very warm welcome to Dr. Anand Narayan. So, sir, we would like to begin with a discussion about the beginnings and how your formative years were as you remember them. What was the atmosphere like when you were growing up and how was it around? Did you … did you know somehow that this was where your passion would lead you?
Dr. Anand Narayanan :
Okay, so umm … see I grew up in a family that always valued education and the pursuit of knowledge without worrying much about the utility of it. So at home, I remember that we were always surrounded by books of all kinds. There was fiction, non-fiction, history, literature, etc. So reading was always encouraged, and whatever my parents read, they shared with us children. So there was always very good family conversation centred around books, reading and about all aspects of knowledge. So I think, looking back, all that laid the foundation for my own interest in higher education and learning. Somewhere along the way, I think my thought process and my mind kind of matured to a level where I also started asking some meaningful questions about many things. So, umm ... during my 11th and 12th, I developed a kind of interest for physics. During my B.Tech., (I) started reading general books on astrophysics. I read books by Patrick More, by Ken Crosswell; I read books by Carl Sagan, Fred Hoyle. All of them were great communicators of science, so their writing and ideas they put across in those books, they were very fascinating for me and I think it left a very powerful impression on me. And above all, as you very well know, astrophysics as a discipline has this charm because it deals with some of the most profound questions that the human mind has never bothered to ask. So naturally, I was attracted to it and also, as I started reading more on astrophysics by myself I realized that it was a very interesting way to understand physics. Because astrophysics puts physics in a very interesting context okay ... sometimes in extreme conditions you understand physics. So, umm ... I think all that sort of drew me into that subject. So I won't say that there is any particular instance or incidence or a person who, kind of influenced my interest in this discipline but it was a cumulative of all of it; right from the upbringing that I had at home where, as I mentioned, you know, we were always told that what is worthwhile to pursue in life is … umm ... knowledge, okay … So that’s how I became interested in thinking about a career in science, thinking about a career in astrophysics. And so, there was all those things feeding into my ambition and feeding into my confidence that I would be able to pursue something like this.
Naman :
That's really beautiful. One of the lines that I’ve picked up from this is that the idea of valuing knowledge was always there, and that somehow naturally transcended to your understanding that there was a career in science to be pursued.
Prajwal Patnaik (Host 2) :
Sir, we would like to ask about your decision to pursue astronomy and astrophysics after completing your undergraduate course in Electrical and Electronics Engineering. How did the people around you react to this decision, and how was this transition for you on a personal level? And how did the atmosphere in the Pennsylvania State University shape your mind as a researcher?
Dr. Narayanan :
Yeah, so my decision to go for higher education in astrophysics became stronger as I read more and more astrophysics during my engineering years. So you can say that I was teaching myself. So there was some kind of self initiated learning that was going on and initially, I started reading popular books in astrophysics, but then slowly I started also reading more technical books in astrophysics. By technical books I mean textbooks in introductory astrophysics. And so, I found that the way … okay so astrophysics is basically a way of looking at the physical universe, the world around us, and more importantly, the world above us through the prism of physics. So I developed some inside information on the kind of physics and mathematics that goes into astrophysics and I found that I will be able to manage it even though I didn’t have a firm academic foundation in physics. So I thought it’s good to go into this. So when I announced this, I don't think there was any objection. As I said, I was lucky or I was fortunate to be born into a family where they encouraged thinking out of the box. So the freedom to experiment with life was crucial, and my family provided me with that and I think that was a huge … sort of … strength or foundation. When I joined the graduate programme, the Ph.D. programme in astronomy and astrophysics at Pennsylvania State University, all incoming students, they are given a graduate students’ handbook. So it’s like a user's manual on how to plan your PhD years, and the first sentence of that graduate handbook was something interesting. It said, “Graduate school in astrophysics is like drinking water from a fire hose. Your thirst will get quenched, but you may kill yourself in that process.” So, what it meant, it was their humorous way of saying that it's not going to be an easy ride. It’s going to be a lot of demand and surely, you know, as I went through the months and years I realised that that sentence was actually true. So, the coursework was very demanding, and since I didn't have a thorough exposure to physics before joining that program, it was all the more challenging for me. But I taught myself physics on a need-to-know basis. It was a very tough ride - it was a steep climb - but, you know, for all good things in life, the climb is usually steep. The environment was highly supportive. All the faculty members who were there, looked at every graduate student in that context in from which they came. So they never looked at the students from the same yardstick. There were always constant conversation with faculty members on where we lack and where support was required. One of the things is that, in a research environment, you learnt in the classroom context, but a lot of learning also happens through osmosis. Okay, so you are in an environment where everybody is thinking about new ideas, everybody is thinking about different ways of approaching a problem; and so you watch and see them perform, and then you also learn- okay, so that one can approach thinking this, one can solve problems this way, one can cope with challenges in this way. Formally and informally, one gets to learn a lot. And that's what happened during my PhD years also.
Naman :
Okay, it's actually quite reassuring to know that given proper environments, with some hard work, one can surely be enabled to pursue a Bachelors there. So, continuing along the same lines, we'd like to tell a little onto your doctoral work. How did you get interested in quasars exactly at that point? And reading a bit through your thesis also, and how it talks about quite intimidating and interesting things, we'd like to ask you how did that whole idea come about for you and what did it entail. What did it with the work exactly entail?
Dr. Narayanan :
Yeah, so before joining Penn. State, I only had a peripheral understanding of what astrophysics is. So I wanted to choose a place where there was a large diversity in terms of research. And Penn. State had people working in different areas of astrophysics. There was a huge diversity and so, since I didn't know exactly what research in astrophysics is about, I wanted to be in a place where I could sample some of these areas before choosing what I would want to work on for my PHD. So I was looking for a project that is a good hybrid of theory and observations. So I wanted something which is a good admixture of both these, and study of quasars and light from quasars, to understand properties of diffuse gas in the universe that seem like a very interesting thing. And so, I chose that as my work. The work that I did for my doctoral dissertation, it essentially involved using distant bright galaxies, which are generally known as quasars, to study the physical properties and chemical abundances of gas that is in between us and the quasars. So as it turns out, most of the ordinary matter, which is fashionably referred to as baryonic matter, most of this ordinary matter in our universe lives outside of galaxies. So if you are actually just looking at pictures of light coming from galaxies, we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. Most of the ordinary matter is in a very diffuse form outside of galaxies in the environment surrounding galaxies. So to study this visible component of our universe, this ordinary matter, we need to make use of a technique called absorption line spectroscopy. And this technique involves looking at very bright distant galaxies and collecting the light from those galaxies using telescopes and sending that light to a spectrograph which disperses that light. And when you look at the spectrum of that distant galaxy, you are going to see evidence for whatever parcel of gas that is between us and and that galaxy. So even if that a parcel of gas is not emitting starlight, it’s going to cast its spectral shadow on the light. So this is an interesting way to study diffuse gas in the universe. So my own research work was trying to understand a particular kind of parcel of gas that is present in our universe from the present universe to the very distant universe over roughly 10 billion year-history of the universe, how has this particular parcel of gas evolved over cosmic time?
Naman :
Uh huh. Okay, I mean ... so there’s this one thing that I … that I really wanted to ask regarding this. There are so many specific details in this broad range over that you just described, and I see that your … that your thesis was also clearly pointing that out that weak, low ionization quasars absorb. So, I mean … how do you decide, how do you point at the details that you want to explore? How do you go about that process when you’re conducting your research?
Dr. Narayanan :
Yeah, so there’s this old saying about research that research is knowing more and more about less and less. Now I think in different fields of science, the approach could be a little bit different. But at least in astronomy, this is the way it works. So before committing to a certain problem, you do some ... you go to a checklist, okay ... you see whether the kind of questions that you are trying to answer, whether they are answerable with the current data that is available or the data that is likely to become available with existing facilities. There are a lot of questions for which you may want to know an answer. For example, we may want to know whether there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. Okay … but that’s a question that we can live with throughout our life but maybe we may never find an answer to it. That's an interesting question but that's probably not requesting that we should go after when we are planning for a Ph.D. Okay, so ... so you go through a checklist and see whether there is enough data that is available or there is enough information that's going to become available to address that particular question. And second is what kind of tools are required to address those questions. If that is also available, then you kind of jump into it and then you go through that process. And research in any discipline, it has certain characteristics which is that you are working in the area that probably other people have not worked a lot on. They may have worked on allied areas but this particular question maybe, nobody else has looked at in great detail. So you are on ... kind of on your own. You are, sort of, clearing the path and making your own way. So that means that it's going to be an emotional ride. So that's another thing that you prepare yourself, you know. When you start off this journey, there are going to be moments of ecstasy and there are going to be moments of agony. But that is true for any creative process. There is a lot of ups and downs that you go through, but that's part of the package. You know, that's what you sign up for. So this is all the things that happens to you, and this is how we get into research. And this ... and finally, with support from your own mentor, support from your own supervisors, who kind of hold your hand at times and show you the right direction till whenever your work gets completed. So ... it's interesting ... it's a slightly long innings, but it's a very interesting journey.
Prajwal :
Sir, as you mentioned, research is about trying to clear unexplored paths and while pursuing a Ph.D., one has someone to turn to for guidance. But as an independent researcher, one is free to wander about. On that note, we would like to talk about the latter half of your journey. Your current research shows a broad range of ideas being delved into, like search for distribution patterns of baryonic matter, the use of spectroscopic data in understanding high metallicity of extragalactic gas clouds and about the investigations of active galactic nuclei. So would you like to throw some light on your current research directions?
Dr. Narayanan :
Whatever research that I am currently doing is an extension of the kind of work that I started off during my postdoctoral years. So after my Ph.D., I went for my postdoctoral work at the University of Wisconsin, Madison and it was ... this was in 2008. And it was a very exciting time because right around 2009 was when the last servicing mission of the Hubble Space Telescope was done. One of the main tasks that they did during the servicing mission is to install a very unique spectrograph on Hubble called the Cosmic Origins Spectrograph. And so, I started my work with a set of people who were part of the Cosmic Origins Spectrograph team. One of the big questions in observational cosmology or extragalactic astronomy at that time was the census of baryons in the present universe. So let me explain that a little bit; it turns out, throughout cosmic history, throughout the 13 billion-year history of our universe, this ordinary matter has mostly lived outside of galaxies in the very high redshift universe. In the distant faraway universe, 98 percentage of ordinary matter lives outside of galaxies for the simple reason that galaxies had not formed then. The universe was too young, galaxies were just beginning to form. And then 10 billion years or 13 billion years rolled by and many galaxies and galaxy clusters and galaxy groups formed. So you would have assumed that a lot of matter would have flown into those galaxies. But observational census of ordinary matter in the ... in the local universe showed that only 10 % of the cosmic inventory of baryons are actually inside galaxies in the form of stars, planets, etc. Which means 90% of it is still outside. So in other words, galaxy formation, the formation of large-scale structure in the universe, is a highly inefficient process. You gave the universe 10 billion years’ time, but still it could form only galaxies with an efficiency of roughly 10 percentage. So if you want to study the only observable component of our universe, which is visible matter, you need to look outside of galaxies. And so the quest began to find complete observational census of ordinary matter in the low redshift universe. And when they did this search, they found out that no matter how hard they tried to look at where these baryons could be lurking outside of galaxies, the observational census was always falling short of 100%. Many observational searches were done and they found out that the baryons outside of galaxies add another 50% or 60% to what is inside galaxies. So the census was kind of hanging at something like 60%. So 40% of the main baryons were still missing. So this was termed as the Missing Baryons problem, obviously. Baryons are missing so Missing Baryons problem. There was a need to complete the observational census of these baryons. So one of the main science drivers for building this Cosmic Origins Spectrograph was to complete the baryon census in the low redshift universe. So COS was installed in 2009 and data started coming in. And this observational search began, and since then the census of baryons in the low redshift universe have come very close to 100% so the Missing Baryons problem is kind of solved. So this is an area that I have been working on for the last 10 years and more. Off late, that work, we have been doing also with students in IIST who have been doing projects with me, and where we tried to detect where these baryons are present, at what densities and temperatures these missing baryons could be present and what kind of astrophysical environments they are present. So that's the work … that’s been most of that work and whatever you just mention the question, those are all allied topics related to this. But the grand theme is going after the baryons in the low redshift universe and trying to complete the observational census of them.
Naman :
Okay, okay. Really interesting, I mean … it fills up a whole broad world of questions that I have now, going on. So there’s this enveloping idea of trying to figure out where the missing baryons are, right? Is this … is this all that we’re trying to figure out while analysing this data? Or is there something else that also comes out of it that you find helpful? And the second part, which is perhaps more naive, is if this investigation is somehow aimed at also, maybe even very peripherally, at reconciling the seeming disconnect between the Dark Matter hypothesis and the elusiveness surrounding the attempts for its direct detection?
Dr. Narayanan :
Okay, so umm … I think I'll answer the second question first. So whenever we say missing matter, usually people confuse it with dark matter. But as you mentioned rightly in the question, you know, these are two different things. There seems to be overwhelming evidence or observations from multiple directions seem to indicate that there is an invisible gravitating component to our universe which is called dark matter. And there is even probably … an even more mysterious component of a universe called dark energy which is causing the expansion of the universe. So dark matter and dark energy together add up to 96% of the energy density of the universe. All the stuff that we see around us and all the stuff that we call as galaxies, stars, planets, etc., they are just 4% of the overall energy density of the universe. So what I was explaining as missing baryons is that 4%. Even in that 4%, in the local universe, we don't know where most of that 4% is! The observational census of baryons in the low redshift universe, that doesn't directly address this question of what dark matter could be your what dark energy could be. Those questions are left out. But it is linked with dark matter in the following way- when we are trying to find where these baryons could be present, where they could be lurking in our universe, we take the help of numerical simulations. We take the help of theory to tell us where we should be looking. The universe is a vast place. So, if any, pointers on where we should be looking would be very useful. So, studies of something that's been happening in cosmology over the last 20-30 years is that from a theoretical point of view, many people are simulating the formation of large-scale structures with the help of supercomputers. So how galaxies, galaxy clusters, etc. form and how did the large-scale structure of the universe come about. So these simulations, they don't have to worry about missing baryons, etc. because you’re simulating the universe in the computer. So you put the baryons and you can watch what is happening to them with time. And so these simulations show that in the present universe, a lot of baryons are present in highly ionized form, as a plasma with temperatures of a 100,000 K to a 10 million K. And this gas is at such high temperatures because of the formation of structure in the universe. These galaxies and galaxy clusters form under the influence of dark matter. So dark matter provides the scaffolding on which ordinary matter forms structures. So whenever we see a galaxy, the galaxy is actually held by the underlying potential of dark matter. So dark matter is this invisible framework within which ordinary matter is organising itself into this large-scale structures. So during the process of structure formation, when ordinary matter flows into dark matter potential well driven by the force of gravity, the speed with which they flow exceeds the speed of sound. And that produces shocks, astrophysical shocks. And these shocks tend to shock-heat the matter to very high temperatures of plasma. So if it is in a completely ionized state, it's very difficult to see them in absorption against background sources because the electrons are all ripped from the … the atom. So, it's very difficult to see it. But, you … one can detect it provided one has access to far-ultraviolet, ultraviolet high energy spectroscopy. So that's where ... theory says that that is the kind of energy range that we should be looking at, that's the kind of spectra that we should be looking at. That’s why Cosmic Origins Spectrograph was built and that's why it has succeeded in detecting a lot of these baryons. So the way the work is connected with dark matter is we are following the properties of matter within the framework of dark matter. That’s how it is, yeah.
Naman :
Extremely, extremely fascinating.
Prajwal :
It was really good to see how enthusiastically you spoke about it. Like even, at a point, you had to actually drop off your … leave your mic and go with the flow.
Dr. Narayanan :
I was cold in my hands, yeah.
Naman :
But this was extremely interesting. I mean, I never read about this. This is something that’s completely left out from what we are taught in popular culture.
Prajwal :
So, sir, would you like to throw some light on what scientific research directions did you not pursue? Okay, maybe due to lack of time, you know, you didn't find time to, but you were otherwise very interested to do it.
Dr. Narayanan :
So, while I was doing my Ph.D., a field of research that was gaining a lot of momentum was the discovery of planets beyond the confines of our solar system, orbiting other stars. These are called extrasolar planets and this was an up-and-coming field. It was like an adventure that was unfolding in astrophysics. So 1995 is when the first extrasolar planet around a sun-like star was discovered, and Pennsylvania State University, where I was doing my Ph.D., had people who were part of a larger campaign to find extrasolar planets, planets orbiting other stars. So it was a very interesting topic because this is a question that a lot of people are interested in for the simple reason that one of the big questions that has been occupying the human mind for a very long time is the possibility of finding life elsewhere in the universe. So the first step in trying to answer that question is to find a potentially habitable safe haven for life. And planets … life, as we know it, requires a planetary environment. So, prior to 1995, the only example that we had of a planetary system was our own solar system, and all kinds of grand ideas about how planets form around stars were all based on this one example of our own solar system. But in 1995, the first planet was discovered and following that, more and more planetary discoveries started coming up. So I can say that planets came back to the centerfold of astrophysics, so to speak, once again became very important and there is a lot of interest in it. And also at that time, there was a development of an interdisciplinary field of science called astrobiology, which is a happy marriage between life sciences and astronomy and geology and atmospheric science, where you have people with expertise in all these fields trying to answer one fundamental question which is could there be life outside of earth. So the US space agency NASA, it identified 11 institutions all across US to start astrobiology programmes and Penn. State was one of the ... chosen as one of the centres for astrobiology research. And so we had a program with our Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics where you could get a double Ph.D. in ... Ph.D. in Astrophysics and Ph.D. in Astrobiology if you are working on topics related to exoplanets and allied astrobiology areas. So the double Ph.D. was not that attractive, but what was interesting to me was that they seemed like a very very exciting field to do something on. Finding planets around others stars. It's far more easy to explain it to people what I'm doing than, you know, quasar absorption line spectroscopy. I can always say that I am looking for planets around other stars. It’s a much more sellable idea. That's one area where I wish, you know, I had taken some time to do some work. But the universe has very interesting ways of compensating for whatever we miss out on our life. And so now I’m at IIST, I’m teaching a Planetary Science course where I teach a lot of exoplanet research related topics, ok. So I teach the techniques that astronomers use to detect planets around other stars. This semester, I am also teaching 7 lectures in astrobiology, which is an institute elective. So that's my way of pacifying myself for having missed out on the opportunity to work in that field.
Naman :
Okay. So sir, to jump a bit, and talking about the non-technical ideas, your contributions to popular science magazines and scientific articles aim at basically generating general awareness. Yet proving to considerable depth without shying away, for instance, from the underlying technicalities, is it possible to articulate in words about what you seek out for, while taking up such endeavours?
Dr. Narayanan :
Yeah, so when I was in grad. school, the professor there used to say that being a good researcher is trying to cultivate multidimensional vector within ourselves. So one is, of course, raw intelligence and not everybody is gifted with raw intelligence. Some people are born with it, and if you have that raw intelligence in abundance, you are well and good. But then, in addition to having intelligence and innovativeness and thinking, etc., it's also important to be able to articulate your ideas in a manner that is coherent, comprehensible and in a manner that is accessible to a wider cross-section of people. So, we were always told to think and write and talk a lot about our own work so that we become comfortable with explaining our own work. And this was not only true for education and public outreach. Even when we are giving scientific talks, scientific lectures, the professors, our mentors always used to say that you try to make it as simple as possible. Often, people tend to appreciate your work not based on how much work you have done, but how well they understand your work. People’s impression about your own work depends on how well they understand it, so this ability to communicate is something that our professionals put a lot of emphasis on. So writing for the general public, communicating science, these are things which I always enjoy doing because that's the time when I can challenge myself and see whether I can tell a story in a way that has a beginning, a middle and an end without leaving it hanging. Writing articles for newspapers, writing articles for school magazines, making documentary films, these are all attempts to do that and to reach out to a wider cross-section of people.
Naman :
So sir, to conclude, I think I would like to ask this final question. Given that you engage a lot with students from all age groups, for instance from school to college and to even graduate students, what inspires you or fascinates you most when you talk to younger children and how does that experience contrast to when you’re interacting with a graduate student. What is it that strikes you the most?
Dr. Narayanan :
Yeah, so this is a very tough question to answer. See, I think, one of the fundamental attributes of what makes us human is curiosity. So I think one of the challenges of growing up is to keep that sense of wonderment and curiosity to the world around us alive. Because that is where knowledge becomes wisdom. We may know a lot of things inside our head, but that is knowledge. Unless that becomes part of our inner being, it doesn't transform into wisdom. And these two are very different. Knowing something and realising what it means is very different. As we grow up, we have to keep on rebooting our system so that we don't lose this connection between knowledge and wisdom. Scientific world view can be as refreshing, as entertaining and as liberating as art or music or anything great that the humankind has done, if only we understand it in its proper context. So this is the difference that I kind of see ... to come back to your original question, this is the difference I see with small children and older students. That sense of curiosity is something that we lose out. But if you think about it. you know, that is what ... that is the hallmark of the human species. So maybe, losing the sense of curiosity could also mean that, you know, we cease to become human!
Naman :
This was Zeroing In with Dr. Anand Narayanan. It has been brought to you by The Sounding Rocket in collaboration with the IIST Alumni Association from the Indian Institute of Space Science and Technology. We extend our sincere gratitude to Dr. Narayanan for sharing his fascinating ideas and insights with us on behalf of our whole team which included Fenil Shah, Manish Chauhan, Prajwal Patnaik and Shreya Mishra and I am Naman Jain. Thanks a lot for listening to this episode. If you have any suggestions, you can write to us on zeroingin@outlook.in or contact or follow us on our Instagram handle at Zeroing In Podcast or The Sounding Rocket page on Facebook. We will see you on the other side of the week with another exciting episode of Zeroing In.